Hey I was thinking about this topic. Has there ever been any economic system in a large civilization that didn’t have elites at the top of the pyramid and tons of peons at the bottom?
Not that I'm aware of offhand but maybe David Friedman would know. He wrote a great book about legal systems very different from ours, I believe, and he's an economist. He has a Substack.
Part of my degree was a History of Ideas course on "Western Encounters with the East". My most favorite thing it taught me was that a major motivator behind European colonization was the mission to wrest control of the spice trade, in particular cloves, from the Ottomans. With no refrigeration, preserving meat was a huge challenge, and spices were essential to keep meet from spoiling - or at least make spoiled meat less inedible! So, finding a sea-route to the sources of such spices to get round the Ottoman control of the land routes was a Very Big Deal.
I'd have to dig to find legit sources beyond my memory, but I've a feeling that you'd love to do that digging yourself! It was thirty years ago that I took this class, and I bet that the history has been updated and reshaped since then, so apologies if I'm incorrect. But it'll be a fun place to start another plunge down the Google-hole, I'm sure.
The importance of spices for the world economy is always a little baffling to me. Like, I totally understand the importance of refrigeration, and salt, and preservatives, and all of that... as much as I enjoy Indian food and such, I'm also perfectly happy with ham soup made with whole ingredients and only a single herb grown in my garden. I Don't really like cloves, I don't understand the appeal of saffron, cilantro is gross, etc etc. But people have like, killed for cheap access to things I take completely for granted.
I think it's because cloves are mildly antiseptic, so they prevent or at least minimize the meat from spoiling. I seem to remember that there was an argument that since it wasn't possible to feed livestock easily over winter, some of the herd would be culled for meat, the rest would be wintered under living spaces to provide some heat. The meat might rot, even if cold, unless preserved, and cloves were the alternative to salt. But don't take my word for it- this is distant memory for me!
That said, guess what I'll be looking up when I get home tonight!
I'd like to recommend a book titled The Origins of Virtue, by Matt Ridley. He talks more about spontaneous cooperation between societies, going pretty far back to early hunters and gatherers.
Because I read your post right after reading John McWhorter's New York times column, it struck me how similar your writing styles are. Would you find it so?
Never heard of him! And I haven't read the Times very much so I doubt it's an influence 🤔 but if you've got a link to a particularly good example I'll check it out, I'm curious now 😂
Hey I was thinking about this topic. Has there ever been any economic system in a large civilization that didn’t have elites at the top of the pyramid and tons of peons at the bottom?
Not that I'm aware of offhand but maybe David Friedman would know. He wrote a great book about legal systems very different from ours, I believe, and he's an economist. He has a Substack.
Thanks. I’ll check out his stuff.
Part of my degree was a History of Ideas course on "Western Encounters with the East". My most favorite thing it taught me was that a major motivator behind European colonization was the mission to wrest control of the spice trade, in particular cloves, from the Ottomans. With no refrigeration, preserving meat was a huge challenge, and spices were essential to keep meet from spoiling - or at least make spoiled meat less inedible! So, finding a sea-route to the sources of such spices to get round the Ottoman control of the land routes was a Very Big Deal.
I'd have to dig to find legit sources beyond my memory, but I've a feeling that you'd love to do that digging yourself! It was thirty years ago that I took this class, and I bet that the history has been updated and reshaped since then, so apologies if I'm incorrect. But it'll be a fun place to start another plunge down the Google-hole, I'm sure.
The importance of spices for the world economy is always a little baffling to me. Like, I totally understand the importance of refrigeration, and salt, and preservatives, and all of that... as much as I enjoy Indian food and such, I'm also perfectly happy with ham soup made with whole ingredients and only a single herb grown in my garden. I Don't really like cloves, I don't understand the appeal of saffron, cilantro is gross, etc etc. But people have like, killed for cheap access to things I take completely for granted.
I think it's because cloves are mildly antiseptic, so they prevent or at least minimize the meat from spoiling. I seem to remember that there was an argument that since it wasn't possible to feed livestock easily over winter, some of the herd would be culled for meat, the rest would be wintered under living spaces to provide some heat. The meat might rot, even if cold, unless preserved, and cloves were the alternative to salt. But don't take my word for it- this is distant memory for me!
That said, guess what I'll be looking up when I get home tonight!
Oh that makes sense.. like how people use sugar and honey and vinegar as a preservative too.
I'd like to recommend a book titled The Origins of Virtue, by Matt Ridley. He talks more about spontaneous cooperation between societies, going pretty far back to early hunters and gatherers.
Thanks, that sounds right up my alley! I added it to my list :)
Because I read your post right after reading John McWhorter's New York times column, it struck me how similar your writing styles are. Would you find it so?
Never heard of him! And I haven't read the Times very much so I doubt it's an influence 🤔 but if you've got a link to a particularly good example I'll check it out, I'm curious now 😂